I’ll Say It First…
The new Dark Elves are broken, badly. I mean, they’re not as broken as the new High Elves, where an army comprised of 2×10 archers and the rest Swordmasters probably beats anything in the game (Empire/Dwarf gunlines aside) without even thinking about it. The problems? Well…
Firstly, I’m not happy about Executioners. They wrote up rules for Draichs (essentially flail+halberd, so they wouldn’t always strike last), then decided not to use them. The champ had the ability to add 25 pts of magic items, now removed (AFAICT). 50pt banner limit, now 25 pts. Always Strike First banner bumped from 25pts to 35pts, so they only unit that’d really benefit no longer can. The one plus is that they’re still Khainite. Oh, and they’re S4 now.
Secondly, Witch Elves. Knocked down to WS4 (though the points cost dropped a bit with it). I just don’t really see a reason to take them.
Cold One Chariots are no longer 2-for-1, so it’s a special choice for one chariot? I’ll pass. They’re now mount options for heroes, which is the only way I’d ever take one (though sorceresses cannot be in one, it seems).
Bolt throwers lost the -1 penalty for multiple shots and got bumped up to six shots, like the High Elf ones. I guess I can’t really complain about this, but I’d still rather not use them.
Shades became worthwhile (ability to take great weapons, and they’ve always been skirmishing scouts who can take repeater crossbows). Unfortunately, this makes them 20pts each, and a specials choice. I -may- end up taking some, situationally.
Spearelves are six points, seven with shields. Given the 25pt sacrifice dagger (which can cause panic tests), they may be worthwhile just to sacrifice.
Dark Riders got a points drop, not that they needed it.
Harpies are core. Flying skirmishers with two attacks apiece as core (no, they don’t count towards the min core units, but hey), and the rest of my units don’t care if they panic? Yeah… Balanced.
Corsairs are pretty much the same, except for the ability to take repeater handbows, and you now have to reroll the highest die on your flee. The handbows can be taken as multiples, but 8″ range, only function as a second hand weapon in the first round of combat? Seriously, if you’re that close, I’ll want to be charging (especially if I give one of the units the 25pt frenzy banner, which is corsair only). If not, a seven-wide frontage gives me 28 S3 shots that hit on a 5+ if you charge me. Fair.
As an aside (not that they needed it), repeater crossbows are now armor piercing like guns or WE longbows, except it’s also at long range. WTF. 28 shots against, say, Knights of the Realm ends up with 9ish hits, 4 wounds, one wound after save. It’s still suck against heavy cav, but it’d be murder against lightly armored troops, especially with the usual 10-wide crossbowmen units firing for a few turns.
Crossbowmen are 10pts per, 11 with shield. Woo.
The real WTFs?
Hydras are up to 7 attacks, with three attacks per handler (the handler attacks are also armor piercing). Seven WS4 S5 attacks plus six WS4 S3 armor piercing attacks with terror, and the hydra is T5 W7 3+ save 4+ regen? Shooting randomization automatically hits the hydra, and you can’t strike the handlers in close combat if you also touch the hydra. Plus a points drop to 175? Sure…
Black Guard are no longer 0-1 and no longer rare. They got Immune to Psychology and two attacks. This makes them, for all intents and purposes, a better anvil than hammerers (since fear causing units won’t autobreak them). Not impossible for them to soak a charge from Blood Knights if I can bait them (not hard).
Cold One Knights are equivalent to Grail Knights, only special and not 0-1. WS5, S4, 14″ charge, 2 attacks, lances, Cold Ones still cause fear (and are still S4 T4). Not Immune to Psychology, but big deal. Stupidity might play a role, but that’s always been the case. They’re probably more than worth their points now.
Witch Elves can no longer take magic items. Temple of Khaine stuff only. Black Lotus poison now makes me reroll 1s to wound, and the Rune of Khaine is +D3 attacks.
Reverse ward item is WTF. Armor of Eternal Servitude got cheaper. Manticores now have killing blow, and automagically frenzy+hate if the rider dies. They take a heroes choice to use them as a mount. Dark Elf Dreadlord (replaced Highborn) can easily get a 3+ save on the manticore + reverse ward w/4+ regen plus a magic item (Sword of Ruin to deny armor saves?). Not cool.
Cauldron of Blood is a mount for Death Hags (WE hero), making the cost of hero+CoB 200pts. No rare slot or even hero slot. It still causes terror, has crew (plus the hag), and gives them 4+ wards. Any Khainite units (Execs, Witch Elves, Assassins, maybe Cold One Knights) within 12″ are stubborn. Every magic phase, it can put one of the following effects on ANY unit within 24″ which cannot be dispelled or stopped in any way:
- Killing Blow
- 5+ Ward Save
- +1 Attack
Sorceresses have access to Metal and Fire now as well. Ring of Hotek (miscast on any doubles) got the range boosted to 12″, which may make it worth taking.
Assassins are no longer characters. They’re unit upgrades, but can still take stuff from the Temple of Khaine (no magic items). Stat line is the same, but they cost 45 points less or something. Once revealed, they’re just like current assassins (including the ability to leave the unit). The problem I see with this? Lone assassin makes Grail Knights worthless.
Rune of Khaine (+D3 attacks), Hand of Khaine (killing blow), Black Lotus (reroll 1s to wound). Pop him out and stick him in front of a unit that’s going to be charged, and keep him in range of the cauldron. Grail Knights charge. He hits on 3s, rerolls failed to hit rolls (did I mention that the ENTIRE ARMY has Hatred now) on the first turn with anywhere from 5-7 attacks (3+extra hand weap + D3 attacks), reroll ones, sixes are killing blow, S4. If he even kills ONE knight and can’t get struck back against, he’s perfectly safe. Even if not, the knight needs to wound twice. He loses combat and needs to roll under a 10. I flank charge the grail knights the next turn (or let the assassin tie them up forever). Not cool.
Granted, Black Guard with Cauldron Killing Blow and the ASF banner or the Hydra banner would be incredibly nasty (or both, really), giving them anywhere from 21-36 always-strike-first always-reroll-failed-hits S4 Killing Blow attacks (with both) on a 7-wide frontage, immune to psychology. Witch Elves, similarly, could have 29-43 reroll-failed-hits poisoned killing-blow attacks with a BSB (Hydra banner) and Cauldron, plus whatever Temple Gifts the Hag and BSB had. Cold One Knights look just as bad.
This is not my idea of balance, and this says nothing of the (likely) 4 units of Dark Riders, at least two terror causing units (Cauldron, Hydra, maybe Manticore, maybe lord with the Cold One Knights on a chariot or Cold One), flying skirmishing core units, etc. 50% of my army being stubborn? Cool…
WTB more Rare Units and less specials, and I’m guessing I’ll almost never have Executioners (sadly. I love the models, but Black Guard or Witch Elves simply do it just as well with the Cauldron to give them Killing Blow, and Cold One Knights being viable again gives me S6 on the charge).
Did I mention that a L4 sorceress can generate a ridiculous amount of power dice? Not as many as Vampire Counts, but the “everybody-has-it” spell (even if I don’t take Dark) dives me D3+1 power dice (I suffer wounds if I don’t use them all). By herself, 10-14 power dice per phase is not unreasonable.
Something is not right here. It might be fun against Vampire Counts (a cheesy High Elf list probably still wouldn’t be). I have difficulty seeing Dwarves competing without going ludicrously gunline, to say nothing of Tomb Kings or Bretonnians (since, as noted, I could simply shut down lances with lone assassins, WTF).
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By Missy, June 25, 2008 @ 11:21 am
I really think that you are looking at things incorrectly, here. Firstly, keep in mind that there is uh.. points costs :p it’s not like you’re going to get to field all of this.
First: I don’t see the big deal with harpies. They are like fell bats, but with less wounds. Sure, fell bats are special instead of core, but I never use all of my special choices anyway -shrugs- In any list, really.
Second: Your numbers are wrong on the corsairs, as you can not *multi-shot* when you are standing and shooting.
Third: Your assassin does not tie up a unit of grail knights. You are forgetting the lance formation. If you are touching one, everyone behind him gets to attack you with two attacks. And does the assassin have something you didn’t mention that allows him to attack first when he gets charged?
I also don’t really understand where you are getting your numbers for attacks. How, exactly, do Witch Elves get six attacks each?
I think it’s kind of useless to speculate on how over or underpowered a book will be until it actually comes out. Anything you see beforehand is not necessarily official and there will be things in the book that we don’t know about. Once the list is released and I can actually look through it, then I’ll bitch. But I’ll bet I can still give the new list a run for it’s money with my knights.
By Ryan, June 26, 2008 @ 1:28 am
No, I’m not going to get to field all of this (obviously), but I will get to field maybe 10% more models than before with the lowered points costs.
First: The harpies aren’t a -big- deal, but they are 13 pt flying skirmishers with 2A, as core. Unlike you, I most certainly do use my special choices, so it’s nice to see that I’ll actually be able to take them.
Second: This badly needs to be FAQed or errata’d. Official playtesters and grand tournaments allow the rule, but RAW indicates that they should not be able to. Dark Alliance on Druchii.net and TimmyMWD at Ulthuan.net (both official playtesters) state that GW has clarified it to allow, but I’ve never seen a link from either backing it up. Dakka Dakka’s You Make Da Call section thinks you can, but Warseer thinks you can’t. Warhammer.org.uk thinks you can, but Bugman’s Brewery thinks you can’t. It’s not at all clear.
Third: Yes, it does. I’m not forgetting the lance formation (beyond that the extra attacks form the ones behind it don’t matter when I’m in the middle of the unit, unless that changed), and they certainly wouldn’t apply in challenges. Sure, you could decline the challenge, but nothing saying I couldn’t take Dance of Death also.
Assassins have had ASF since their inception in 4th ed.
The attacks for Witch Elves are assuming a 7-wide frontage with a hag (1A+HW+Frenzy+banner = 4-6 attacks per WE, and 5-7 for the hag, unless it got a last-minute change to the current 1A per model, which isn’t impossible, but it’d still be 29A), not five.
Whether or not you consider it useless to speculate, I wouldn’t expect the final rules to be very different (not all the magic items/banners have been listed, by the book was on display at GamesDay NJ, plus confirmation from playtesters.
Regardless, by saying they’re broken, I mean it’s pretty much like the DE lists from 5th and 6th ed, where some of your choices are clearly never worth taking and some are amazing. Not that the list is under/overpowered, which is hard to tell without the full item list.
I don’t doubt that dwarf/empire gunlines, full heavy cav (Empire/Chaos, depending on composition, or Bret), and some other choices are still going to be competitive. The army is certainly going to be more competitive than it was before (assuming you weren’t playing the One True List), though.
By Missy, June 26, 2008 @ 11:28 am
Uhm.. if you’re in the middle of the unit, you will be in base contact with everything and they will ALL be able to hit you. You can say that because a cav base is bigger, you can make it so that you’re only in contact with one, but the BRB explicitly states that you MUST place yourself in contact with as many models as possible. Therefore, there will be other things that can hit you.
Hopefully they will FAQ it, or just have it explicitly stated one way or the other in the DE book, but according to the BRB there is NOTHING that allows you to multi-shot as stand and shoot. Until I see it at an official Games Day, or I see someone from GW say that it is allowed, RAW says no. FAQs for High Elves definitely say no.. so.. precedent says no.
And really, these kind of updates are necessary. EVERYONE is getting revamped and all of the new books seem cheesy and whatever.. but if they make a new book that isn’t cheesy and whatever, it just won’t be competitive when they’re finished.
By Ryan, June 27, 2008 @ 3:34 am
Call GW yourself, then, as I did this afternoon. Verdict of the girl on the phone — allowed (it might be a different answer if I called again, though, for all I know).
FAQ for High Elves does not constitute precedent, as the Reaver Bow is not subject to the rules for multi-shot, ditto for the Bow of Athel Loren.
Honestly, though, the rules for multiple shot aren’t just specific to Dark Elves. Blowguns on skinks, repeater handguns, and braces of pistols on Dwarves/Empire, off the top of my head. This is not a problem with Dark Elves specifically, just with GW’s poorly written stand and shoot rules. The Treeman’s stand and shoot required errata. The rules for a brace of pistols clearly imply that both pistols would be used during the close combat phase (though the only reason to have both out is to multi-shot on a stand and shoot). Battle reports show multi-shot on S&S happening, etc. Really, call GW, or something…
The point with the assassin is that it could conceivably tie up a unit of Grail Knights, not that it’s guaranteed. Yes, I have to touch multiple models (not that it matters). Issue a challenge, which will almost certainly be declined. One of the two models I’m touching can’t attack (declined challenge, since AFAIK, it can only be accepted or denied by models in BtB, and let’s assume it’s your BSB or paladin or whatever is in the middle). Even with one attack from the Rune of Khaine (1-2 on a D6), I’ve got 5 attacks. 4.5ish of those hit, meaning 2.625 wounds (with a 75% chance of a killing blow). You have a 60% chance of saving plus the 16% chance of a ward, leaving ~1 wound (killing blow not taken into account there). You strike back with 4 attacks at S6 (assuming I killed the one I touched, which is likely). 2 hits, 84% chance to wound. 1.68 wounds. It’s a fairly close call. If I dropped Hand of Khaine for Dance of Death, it’s slightly more in my favor. It’s not a certainty that an assassin will tie up a unit of Grail Knights singlehandedly, but by the numbers, I’ve got a 50/50 shot or so, even without taking Dance of Death for a ward save.
Again, not bitching about it being cheesy. I’m saying that, like the last edition (and some of the stuff in the VC book, like Black Knights/Bat Swarms), there are a number of units which are obviously not worth taking ever (Cold One Chariots being one of those, as a 1-for-1 specials choice). I don’t see a reason to take Executioners either (which is sad, given that they’re one of my favorite units). Thing is — I can see a use for almost everything in the new Demons list, the VC list, the HE list, the Empire list, etc.
Sure, there are more options for playstyle with Dark Elves than there were in 6th Ed, to be sure, and my complaints about the new list mostly stem from the lack of versatility unless you’re running specific builds.
By Dan, June 27, 2008 @ 11:01 am
Basic comment (I thought about this) — Empire Repeater Handguns probably can’t S&S because they’re Move Or Fire and Outriders nearly always move. There may be some bizarre situation in which they did not, and I haven’t looked for the errata, but that’s my guess.
Other comments, regarding the Assassin — I have supreme doubts that a Dark Elf Assassin will remain two wounds with that kind of power and not be a Hero choice. I don’t see how they can justify the rules at all if he’s not. Which isn’t to say that he’ll be a Hero, because I frankly don’t understand GW’s rules decisions anymore, but only to say that he should be a hero if he’s that powerful. The ability to singlehandedly tie up a ~ 400 point unit, even for a single turn, is unacceptable for a model that costs ~ 100 points. This isn’t a comment on using them if they’re that powerful. You’d be a fool not to do so. Only that it makes no sense.
By Missy, June 27, 2008 @ 11:30 am
I might respond more later, but I’ll just confirm now that I called GW (didn’t realize you could do that, actually, with the roolzboyz gone) and the dood said that you could multi-shot as S&S reaction and just take additional penalties.
By Ryan, June 27, 2008 @ 7:56 pm
No, repeater handguns probably can’t S&S, but the Move or Fire rules fall into another nebulous hole that, AFAIK, has not been FAQed or errata’d. They clearly say “in that turn”, yet the S&S reaction would be in the next turn, so RAW would allow it (whereas any logical thinking would disallow).
I can’t see why the assassin would remain two wounds and not be a Hero choice, but the word from playtesters and people who saw the rulebook at Games Day seem to say that the statline is identical. To be fair, it’d be ~155 pts (80 pts base plus 75pts of Temple of Khaine upgrades), but I see a problem with this as much as you do — I should not be able to put something that powerful (and other than the Venom Sword and some other item I’d never use, Temple of Khaine items, like Vampiric Powers/Chaos Gifts, can be taken multiple times in the same list) in any unit that isn’t mounted. To be able to run a Supreme Sorceress + Hag w/Cauldron of Blood (maybe as a BSB) + plus a noble on a manticore to hunt things plus assassins in any unit I feel like is off somehow. Assassin with the shades to scout? Can do. Throw one in the Black Guard and Witch Elves? Sure. While powerful before (and yes, Skaven Assassins have been this way for a long time, but nobody’s saying they’re balanced), being able to add them any time I have extra points to blow is not cool.
Other than that, seriously, Executioners needed a fix of some kind. They’re still a unit that’ll win most any combat in which they charge, but Vanhel’s (or Unseen Lurker, or any other movement spell) makes them virtually worthless, and I see little reason to take them over Shades, Black Guard, Cold One Knights, or even Witch Elves. I love the unit, to be sure, just that I can’t see that I’d ever take them (even if I could get more special choices in a larger game, I’d probably soak them with more Knights or Black Guard).
I didn’t realize you could call GW with the RoolsBoyz gone either until I looked through their rules troubleshooting flowchart.